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Author Topic: Do we hear what we are actually playing?  (Read 1428 times)

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Offline gtfossum

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Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« on: April 27, 2012, 12:23:42 AM »
I'm never satisfied with the sound I get out of my harmonica. It never sounds like my model Sigmund Groven. Nevertheless I discovered something interesting the other night when playing along with some youtube clips. I've suspected that what I hear and what others hear when I'm playing is rather different. I've often had the comment from others that they don't hear the flaws in sound that I hear myself.

I was playing along with to different versions of Norwegian sunset. One of the versions was the "official" version with Tommy Reilly from the Norwegian animation "Flåklypa Grand Prix". The other version was with a less famous player, but also very skillfully played - I used to think. I noticed that my playing sounded more like Tommy Reilly and a little better than this other version. I'm not saying that I play like Tommy Reilly, but that I may be playing a little better than I thought.

Is there any sense in this? My fear is of course that the opposite may also be true: That I play absolutely awfully.

Offline streetlegal

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2012, 02:45:41 AM »
I think that being overly critical of our own playing may get in the way of our enjoyment. For me playing the Chromatic is all about tone - everyday I am looking for better tone. This makes me play in a very stop/start kind of way. But if I feel that my tone is improving then I am happy - I think that good tone is the base from which I can move on.

Here's a nice clip I found of Sigmund Groven - he also shows the harmonica he is playing to the interviewers and how heavy it is (at 6.00) - can anyone identify it - maybe a special custom instrument?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsRVEZ49xzI&feature=related
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 03:01:51 AM by streetlegal »

chrissie

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2012, 06:22:39 AM »
That was so charming!  What a lovely little piece!

BTW I think recording yourself frequently works rather well as a learning tool and a good system of feedback.  I am always recording myself to see if I sound how I think I do.

Chrissie.

Offline gtfossum

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2012, 08:12:44 AM »
Sigmund Groven plays, as far as I know, a Concert Harmonica made by Georg Pollestad in Norway:

http://www.polle.no/index.html

Offline hillyscheper

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2012, 11:59:21 AM »
Although I agree with what's said here already, that Too much self-criticism can ruin Your joy of playing, I personally think there is also another side from which I look at it... You are trying to perfect Your sound to GET some joy from playing in the first place, and this is causing Your personal "hunt" for perfection. I do believe that playing the chromatic Does sound different from When You are playing, or Hear yourself play. I have the same problem; I can't stand the sound of a standard chromatic when I'm playing it myself, but when I hear my mates play in our club, it sounds a Lot better.
Have You tried playing into something like a metal (salad-) Bowl, so that You can hear yourself "from the other end", or maybe have You listened to Your own recordings?? That would give You an excellent idea of the difference in your perspective...??
Just an idea that's all, Hope it works and answers Your own question.
Not quite a Master of my chrome, just Very enthousiastic, willing to learn & share with my own club!

Offline roady43

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2012, 02:46:20 PM »
I think that being overly critical of our own playing may get in the way of our enjoyment. For me playing the Chromatic is all about tone - everyday I am looking for better tone. This makes me play in a very stop/start kind of way. But if I feel that my tone is improving then I am happy - I think that good tone is the base from which I can move on.

Here's a nice clip I found of Sigmund Groven - he also shows the harmonica he is playing to the interviewers and how heavy it is (at 6.00) - can anyone identify it - maybe a special custom instrument?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsRVEZ49xzI&feature=related
Sigmund Groven plays, as far as I know, a Concert Harmonica made by Georg Pollestad in Norway:

http://www.polle.no/index.html

Yes, he mentions the name at 6.06: Pollestad. The "Concert Harmonica Polle" is some kind of a refined Silver Concerto with Hohner reedplates as one can see on the homepage.

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Offline streetlegal

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 03:28:10 AM »
Thanks for that info - very interesting. I've noticed that many of the high end chromatics are made with heavy metal combs. There must be good reason for this - is there an accoustic benefit from the added density within the harmonica - or is it that a heavier harmonica remains more stable when playing - less involuntary movement in the hands than a lighter instrument?

Offline rusty

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 05:33:05 AM »
Two points about what I hear.

The sound (tone) that the player hears is not the sound that the audience will hear if playing acoustically. This has to do with how sound different frequencies decay at differing rates over distance. It may sometimes be close (the accustics of the venue play a part) but not the same

On a more subjective note. I find my playing improves with age. ??? By that I refer to my personal recordings are often listened to with a very critical ear when first done. Played back a year or so later and I often am pleasantly surprised
Music sooths the savage beast...

Offline Grizzly

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2012, 05:44:08 AM »
Our recorded voices can surprise us by how different they sound to what we hear while talking or singing. Try talking with your ears cupped backwards to get an idea of what other people hear. Besides the proximity of the source to our ears, it also has to do with the nasal cavities and bone conduction. The same would be true of harmonica. When people try out our flutes, they often have another listener in the room to help them assess tone, for these same reasons.

Tom
Famous I don't know about. It's hard to be famous and alive. I just want to play music every day and hear someone say, 'Thanks, that was great, here's some money, same time tomorrow, okay?' -- Terry Pratchett, Soul Music

chrissie

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2012, 08:27:54 AM »
Two points about what I hear.

The sound (tone) that the player hears is not the sound that the audience will hear if playing acoustically. This has to do with how sound different frequencies decay at differing rates over distance. It may sometimes be close (the accustics of the venue play a part) but not the same

On a more subjective note. I find my playing improves with age. ??? By that I refer to my personal recordings are often listened to with a very critical ear when first done. Played back a year or so later and I often am pleasantly surprised

The same applies to looking at old photos of oneself!

Chrissie

Offline gtfossum

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 02:41:09 PM »
To make a recording of oneself is of course always a good idea. I'm used to this from my education as a pastor. I guess I will have to invest in a good microphone, if only the family budget will alow it! I tried using the phone once. That did not sound better than what I hear when playing. I any case: I'd rather spend my money on another harmonica than recording equipment. Internal conflict!

chrissie

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2012, 04:16:55 PM »
I used the internal microphone on my laptop until I wore it out, and then I bought a pretty cheap microphone from Best Buy which clips on the side of the laptop and works just fine.  I use a free download software called Audacity to record myself.

It doesn't have to be an expensive proposition and it is an excellent learning tool.

Chrissie

Offline A.J.Fedor

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 06:23:51 PM »
Of course we sound different to ourselves! Just as our voices sound different since half of the sound is traveling through our heads. Remember lying in the tub on your back with just your ears under water? There a lot of things that effect what we hear. However, many of us don't realize that we can train ourselves to "filter" out and compensate for those "internal" effects.  Of course you'll never do it if you don't record yourself; but how else do you think an impressionist does it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiSfxSohpy8&feature=related
After a while you'll know just what you sound like on the outside.

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« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 07:29:22 AM by A.J.Fedor »
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Offline gtfossum

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 01:15:04 AM »
An interesting perspective that I have not thought of: That we filter and can, more or less, learn to perceive what others are actually hearing.

Also thanks to Chrissie. I have not had any good luck using the internal pc-microphone, but haven't really tried much at this either. So I'm going to give it a try again.

Offline streetlegal

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 04:12:06 AM »
I got a cheap MP3 player with a built in left/right stereo mic from ebay - about £20.. I was not expecting too much but when I recorded myself holding this little gadget against the back of my harmonica mute and then connected it to my TV speakers to play back the mp3 the sound reproduction was good - no hissing.

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 12:43:32 PM »

Grizzly and Age are correct.

A long time ago I had a cheap made in Taiwan tape recorder. It was about $8.50 and made of orange and yellow plastic. I got it at J.B.M. Bargain Barrel. The condenser mike was a cheap piece of rubbish but it DID record and I had a lot of fun with it. Years later I got a Norelco mini overhead 4" reel to reel. When playing the old tapes, I was surprised at how differently they sounded. The Norelco was about $95.oo

THEN I borrowed my sisters Grundig 8" reel to reel, and WOW, another difference. Sooo, the deal is that if you really want to hear what you sound like, you need TWO recorders and then ask a second party which one sounds more like you do. You can also do this with computers. Because believe me, you will NEVER sound like you do to yourself. You need a second set of (good) ears. And..btw, the microphones aren't the only part causing the difference. Sooo, mics should ALSO be checked by more than one person.

And this may be a north east thing, but I don't know too many people whom went and bought an instrument all by themselves. They usually took a friend, another musician, or an authority. I didn't. I bought my stuff from pawn shops.

smo-joe     

Offline rusty

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2012, 08:18:39 AM »
Late in life I have come to understand the effects on sound a reasonable mic can make. $100 bucks should get you going, OK maybe $120. Kids eat to much anyway, teach em how to forage for food ;)
Music sooths the savage beast...

Offline Jinxter

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2012, 02:37:52 PM »
I play violin and ALL the sound comes out right next to my ear. 
To me it never sounds smooth.  I can easily hear all the scrapes and creaks as the bow moves and the sound of my fingers on the fingerboard.  I worry and get frustrated all the time because despite all the practice the quality is never good enough.

My brother is a guitar player and is always asking me to do a piece with him at a local folk club where he plays.  Eventually I Joined him on stage to play "Autumn Leaves" and an Irish tune "One Starry Night" this went really well.  One of the members records the sessions and I apologized for the scratchy sound.  At the end of the night he got me to listen to the recording.  It was totally different to what I heard, no scratching or weak tone, just smooth and warm.  As the sound travels it seems that the "rough stuff" dissipates and after a few feet the sound is much better.

I won't ignore what I hear though, otherwise the "rough stuff" might get through.  Keep aiming for perfection, just don't worry about it.
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Offline Grizzly

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2012, 02:56:17 PM »
I always sound better to people who hear me from the next room.

Tom
Famous I don't know about. It's hard to be famous and alive. I just want to play music every day and hear someone say, 'Thanks, that was great, here's some money, same time tomorrow, okay?' -- Terry Pratchett, Soul Music

Offline iowaplayer

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2012, 03:02:38 PM »
the search for perfection.......oy vey!

when i play guitar or flute, or whatever instrument i'm goofing around with, i play for the pleasure of playing.  yeah, i work out mistakes, try to get better, but mostly i'm doing it for fun.  and i'm probably not going to present my goofing-around  to anyone else.  i'm doing that just for me.

harmonica, that's a different thing for me.  i want perfect, and i'm willing to do the work to get it.  i listen to my tapes (most of which i hate) and go back and work on those things that displease me.  i think that mind-set is a requirement for any musician texpecting to get paid for their work.   because at this point, it IS work.  its a job, albeit a really fun and satisfying one.

playing for fun can be entertaining for others to listen to, and i think its fun to do.   but the self-levied expectation of perfection isn't there when its for fun and for free. at least, not for me.

maybe this falls under that definition of an artist: someone who can hold two contradictory ideas in their head at the same time?

i think i said in a different post that the tape recorder never lies.   i should have added the caveat - if you're using a decent recorder and mic.

iowaplayer
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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2012, 10:10:51 PM »
Quote
i think i said in a different post that the tape recorder never lies.   i should have added the caveat - if you're using a decent recorder and mic.
Sorry to disagree Iowaplayer, but I believe the tape recorder (regardless of quality) ALWAYS lies. The truth is it's lovely piece of technical and electrical wizardry that, sadly, comes nowhere near the abilities of the human ear. Don't forget, the ear is connected to the greatest supercomputer ever constructed in the entire universe (aka the 'brain'). Whereas a tape recorder takes audio waves and converts them into digital (or even worse, analogue) data, the brain is a truly organic hearing device that is able to 'hear' so much more than we could possibly even be aware of. Perception of course is a funny thing. You know the reason why we think that we sound different to what we actually hear when we listen to an audio recording of ourselves? Because it actually IS different, an audio recording can never get anywhere close to the reality.
2p

Offline iowaplayer

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2012, 10:56:50 PM »
i agree wholeheartedly that the human ear is an incredible piece of acoustic equipment.  when combined with the human brain, its probably one of the greatest acoustic processor designs on the planet!

in the context of this conversation though, the system is badly biased by the fact that the sound generating apparatus (harmonica, jaw, throat, chest, skull, sinus passages, etc) are mechanically very closely coupled to the acoustic system, in particular the microphone (ear) that the acoustic processor is no longer able to accurately judge the sounds its being presented with.

its somewhat akin to gluing microphones to our skulls to pick up the trumpet we are playing.  we'll get a signal, but certainly not the signal coming out of the bell of the trumpet.

the tape recorder allows our acoustic processing system (ears and brain) to be able to perceive sound much more objectively than listening to one's self during the act of making sounds, either instrumentally or vocally.

additional to this is the effect of psychoacoustics, the effects on the brain's acoustic processing abilities effected by inputs and environment not necessarily of acoustic origin.  for example, the ability to blank out certain sounds as being unimportant due to constancy of the sound and the lack of impact on the human system.  or brain workloading, where the brain simply ignores inputs once a threshold of the number and speed of inputs is exceeded.

i guess my point is, as a musician, i'll be able to judge my tone quality, and the quality of technique much better (more truthfully) from a tape recorder than by what i hear while i'm playing.

iowaplayer

as an afterthought: the acoustic reception and processing capabilities of today's sonar systems found on american submarines far exceed the capability of the human ear in both sensitivity, accuracy, and processing.   just sayin.....

ip

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Online Bluesy

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2012, 10:55:14 AM »
Hearing yourself through a mic for the first time is an eye-opener! I hooked up my new Shure cardioid to my Fender Princeton Reverb guitar amp and startled myself. I was also surprised that I couldn't get that deep, treble-less sound that @ge gets on his video. I thought that cranking up bass and turning treble and midrange down or off would do it but it didn't. In fact, I wonder how Toots gets his unique sound. I read that he plugs his mic into the house system. Amazing. I think that Hendrik Meurkens does the same.
I guess I'll just have to wait for stardom to find out.

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2012, 01:50:07 PM »

I also plug into the house system. When I put the jack plug into the wall socket, I get a terrific shock which makes my hair stand on end and start to smoke. That's how I got my handle.

smo-joe   

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Re: Do we hear what we are actually playing?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2012, 02:08:58 PM »

I also plug into the house system. When I put the jack plug into the wall socket, I get a terrific shock which makes my hair stand on end and start to smoke. That's how I got my handle.

smo-joe

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