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Offline keithfre

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2012, 05:52:27 AM »
IMO, Chromatics leak bad enough when we maintain a good seal on the mouthpiece; what you're describing sounds like a recipe for a very weak sound.
Sure, but I'm not advocating this while playing a note, only while moving up and down the mouthpiece, to reduce the abrasion on the lips, which I've had problems with.
-Keith (Netherlands)

Offline A.J.Fedor

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2012, 12:43:03 PM »
Oh! okay, that's cool. As long as you can do it well enough that it doesn't slow you down in the process, cuz you're gunna have to allow for: lift, move, re-seal and blow (or draw)
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Offline keithfre

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2012, 01:01:21 PM »
Oh! okay, that's cool. As long as you can do it well enough that it doesn't slow you down in the process, cuz you're gunna have to allow for: lift, move, re-seal and blow (or draw)
Yes, that's what I have to find out. Will let youze guyze know if I make any progress with this technique - just  don't hold your breath
-Keith (Netherlands)

Offline Grizzly

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2012, 07:03:19 PM »
The "lift" isn't enough to disorient a player. I've done it, but maintain light contact with the mouthplate in the process—just enough to feel where I'm going. It works. Sometimes out of necessity, if my lips get sticky. :P

Tom
Famous I don't know about. It's hard to be famous and alive. I just want to play music every day and hear someone say, 'Thanks, that was great, here's some money, same time tomorrow, okay?' -- Terry Pratchett, Soul Music

Offline Bluesy

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 08:41:35 PM »
If you look closely in recent videos you can see Toots lifting off of the MP more now that he's dryer in old age. He has also made a change to keep his lips moist that I described in another thread that I won't repeat here, but I've been utilizing it with good success.

TomC/
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Offline streetlegal

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2012, 04:34:38 AM »
I'm working on finding the right balance - I think that this has a lot to do with tension. If I get too tense the harmoncia gets pressed too tightly to my lower lip and accurate sideways movement becomes more difficult. So I'm trying to ease off the pressure a little. Also I do angle the harmonica a little upward - I like the support I get from resting my upper arms against my sides when I play.

Offline Eugene Ryan

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2012, 07:21:00 AM »
He has also made a change to keep his lips moist that I described in another thread that I won't repeat here

Tom, would you mind repeating it here?  I haven't seen/found the other thread and I think it would be useful to have it here too.

Keith, where are the lips dragging?  I had huge problems with this but solved it using the method I described earlier in the thread.  It took a lot of experimentation over time though.  Forming your embouchure and sliding up and down the harmonica will tell you if it's dragging - if you want to test quickly.  And wetting the lips as regularly as possible helps!

Eugene

Offline keithfre

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2012, 08:05:56 AM »
Keith, where are the lips dragging? 
I haven't analysed that, Eugene, all I know is that they are painful after a long practice session, even using Chopsaver.

I had huge problems with this but solved it using the method I described earlier in the thread.
I did look at that, but I don't like the feel of the harmonica deep in the mouth. With my tendency to mouth ulcers it probably wouldn't help anyway...

And wetting the lips as regularly as possible helps!
Sure, I do that, but that causes dribbling, which makes the valves stick...
-Keith (Netherlands)

Offline Grizzly

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2012, 09:44:09 AM »
Keith, for mouth ulcers (canker sores) I use prescription Tiramcinalone Acetonide, generic of Kenalog in Orabase. It's a sticky paste that stays on the lesions overnight, and can speed healing from a week to a day or two. I don't know its availability where you are.

I don't attribute condensation on the windsavers to slobbering spit. If it's a problem, try tilting your head back a little and let gravity take care of it.

Tom
Famous I don't know about. It's hard to be famous and alive. I just want to play music every day and hear someone say, 'Thanks, that was great, here's some money, same time tomorrow, okay?' -- Terry Pratchett, Soul Music

Offline keithfre

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2012, 11:11:53 AM »
Thanks for the tips, Tom. I'll certainly try tilting - I need to get out of the habit of holding my head down when playing anyway!

Kenalog is prescription-only and from the wiki article looks like pretty strong stuff with some unpleasant side effects. If I can get hold of some myrrh I might try that.
-Keith (Netherlands)

Offline Grizzly

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2012, 03:00:31 PM »
I mistyped triamcinolone. I've been using it for years with no side effects. The strength is only 0.1%. The absorption rate is different for topical v. ingested.

Tom
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 05:12:18 PM by Grizzly »
Famous I don't know about. It's hard to be famous and alive. I just want to play music every day and hear someone say, 'Thanks, that was great, here's some money, same time tomorrow, okay?' -- Terry Pratchett, Soul Music

Offline llumagsara

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2012, 03:31:05 PM »
hello Keith

did you read this thread? http://www.slidemeister.com/forums/index.php?topic=1897.msg40429#msg40429

good health

Agustín

Offline Bluesy

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2012, 08:55:11 PM »
Triamcinolone is a corticosteroid and like all steroids, works by reducing the body's immune response. Kenalog Topical (trade name of the ointment) applied to a canker sore for a couple of days has no systemic effects.

Thomas/
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Offline Grizzly

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2012, 09:07:19 PM »
…and it's the best thing I've found for that type of lesion. Nothing else comes close. I've largely grown out of them, but canker sores really put me under when I was younger. I still get them, even after 65 years.

Ya wanna play harmonica sooner? Get a prescription. Not cheap, but worth it. A little goes a long way.

Tom
Famous I don't know about. It's hard to be famous and alive. I just want to play music every day and hear someone say, 'Thanks, that was great, here's some money, same time tomorrow, okay?' -- Terry Pratchett, Soul Music

Offline Bluesy

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2012, 09:11:50 PM »
…and it's the best thing I've found for that type of lesion. Nothing else comes close. I've largely grown out of them, but canker sores really put me under when I was younger. I still get them, even after 65 years.

Ya wanna play harmonica sooner? Get a prescription. Not cheap, but worth it. A little goes a long way.

Tom
That's punishment for your evil ways, Grizz! Repent! Repent, I say! :D :D

T'other/
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Offline keithfre

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2012, 05:24:44 AM »
-Keith (Netherlands)

Offline fspechtn

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2012, 11:23:16 PM »
A GREAT thread! As a newbie I ask- Does anyone use anything on their lips ,other than saliva, to maintain the mositure necessary to get through a song. Maybe all the drugs I'm taking is drying me up!

Thanks to all- what a knowledable group.
Best Regards, Fred

Offline keithfre

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2012, 05:02:46 AM »
Does anyone use anything on their lips ,other than saliva, to maintain the mositure necessary to get through a song.
I use Chopsaver to protect my lips.
-Keith (Netherlands)

Offline fspechtn

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2012, 03:40:31 PM »
Thank you very much. I will give Chopsaver a try.
Best Regards, Fred

Offline reeds64

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2012, 06:45:00 PM »
I haven't looked at the youtube videos or other reference points people have mentioned. Here are some points about my experience with pucker playing.
Do NOT shove the harmonica into your lips as far as youi can.
Lick lips to get them wet. Shape your lips with round opening for whistling, whistle to check that the shape is right,  set the harmonica onto your pucker and push only hard enough to get a seal.

Lip muscles get tired, same as your biceps get tired. You are holding your lips in a particular shape when you play in pucker method. Build your strength gradually. If you stop playing for a month or so, then try to play nonstop for an hour, you will get aching, tired lips.

Important ----> Wipe all dried saliva off the mouthpiece with wet paper towel, shirt tail or any wet thing that is more flexible than a two by four.

Keep your lips wet. Wet the mouthpiece with a dribble of water, or wet cloth before playing. It's probably easier to drink a tiny bit of water into your mouth  before playing, then slobber a little of that water onto the mouthpiece as you stick it into your mouth for playing.  Get fast at licking your lips with your tongue to wet the lips. You can also briefly shove the harmonica deeper into your mouth to wet it by contact with the inside of your mouth

Offline iowaplayer

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2012, 09:52:00 PM »
back in the day, the members of the Big Harp in california relied on that old harmonica player's standby......


BEER!    lots and lots of BEER!  (AKA lip lube)


iowaplayer

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Offline hillyscheper

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2012, 08:14:06 AM »
Hi There. I'm not much of a Pucker myself, I use tongue-blocking All the time whenever I can. But one of the guys in my club has a rather strange way of puckering... I can't show You How he does it, I will ask if I can take some pictures, but I know how he does it,
he puts hiw mouth into a "letter-O shape" and puts the tip of his tongue onto the bottom of the hole, like a little curl.
Like I said, not my way of playing, but just "something interesting" maybe, here is a picture I just drew up.
My Friend plays this way because he plays by Tabs, and he sais it helps to Feel his way around to know what hole-number he's playing...
Not quite a Master of my chrome, just Very enthousiastic, willing to learn & share with my own club!

Offline A.J.Fedor

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2012, 01:31:53 PM »
That method, IMO, though better than hitting more than one note at a time, is the worst embrasure one can use. A Tongue Block gives a rich mellow sound and delicate overtones with little effort, however it all but removes the tongue as part of the tonal variation process. OTOH, a Pucker, allows myriad tonal variations and faster articulation (for most) but lacks that mellow sound of the Tongue Block.

Okay, Hilly just mentioned the "GroveTongue/U-block". While that method (IMO) may give the player the illusive "single note" it does nothing else but cheat the player out of either the mellow sound of the Tongue-block OR the tonal variation of the Pucker. In other words, limits your musical prowess to that of playing "one fingered piano."

@ge


 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 02:14:21 PM by A.J.Fedor »
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Offline iowaplayer

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2012, 09:46:00 PM »
NOTE:  i wrote this, sat on it for a couple hours, then read what i wrote before pushing the post button.   personal restraint in place.....


RATS, here i go again!  <deep breath>

right on aj!!  pucker allows a player almost limitless ability to create tonal variation on the harmonica.   mostly over-emotional, hammy, amateurish variations in tone.

now, keep in mind that i've heard you play, and i like what i hear.   you seem to possess great tone, tasteful expression, good articulation.   
AND i've listened to great, world class players that used pucker, and have achieved true mastery over their instrument.    BUT......

most people who use pucker are quite similar to amateur actors in their  almost limitless need to squeeze every morsel of emotional content out of every phrase, every syllable of every word, every moment of performance.   making sure every bit of feeling the actor is capable of is expressed in every utterance.  regardless of the true requirements and scope, the true content of the part.   who cares if they can't play the song right, as long as their emotional message is put right out in front!   

just my opinion, mind you.

after listening to hours and hours of youtube and private video and audio tracks of players from all over the world, it disappoints me that so many people take music as a way to completely drench listeners in their internal angst or whatever emotional tidal wave is going on inside them.   the amateurs show very little taste or discrimination in what they say when they play, but they sure do have LOTS to say.  and they want to make absolutely sure that every one of their listeners hear it.

what's sad about that these players is that they place their own message ahead of the message the music was written to convey.   who cares about the delicacy and taste of mozart as long as you can drown the listener in squeezes, bends, extreme vibrato and all the other tricks of pucker-meisters in the desire to show the listeners how deeply they are affected by the music they are caricaturing, or the incredible, world-shattering depths of emotion they feel?  who cares about the romance and majesty of beethoven as long as it is soaked in over-emotional wails and bends masquerading as "expression"?

in both the aforementioned examples, the composers achieved greatness because their work already contained all the emotion they wanted to express.  playing the parts well, result in magnificent works.   listen to any great symphony or chamber group to see what i mean.   i cringe at the thought of eine kleine nachtmusik played the way so many pucker players do.

what depresses me even more, btw, are professionals who are obvious masters of their instruments who insist on indulging in this musical over-acting.   larry adler comes to mind here, among others, imo.

i don't agree that tongue blocking prohibits tonal coloration using the tongue.  a simple throat vibrato is just a combination of tongue and throat muscles varying the pitch of the harmonica to create a pleasing sound.  that same mechanism can draw considerable variation in tone, for those who are willing to learn how.  i do agree, it aint easy.

as to articulation, well.......i've heard the best players in the world play using tongue blocking, and they (murad and peterson particularly) seem to have no trouble getting around their harmonicas rapidly and accurately.  ray tankersley, bob berthiume, chuck fendall, pud mc caskey (stagg mc mann), all played tb and articulated very well.  from legato to pizzicato, and from lento to prestissimo, they can get to the notes in what ever music they are performing without misses and those accidental grace notes known as slop.

AND they managed to keep their personal emotional baggage in their baggage compartments, instead of displaying it for all to uhm....."enjoy".

well, perhaps pucker players who can't seem to learn how to articulate or express themselves while tongue-blocking haven't been willing to put the time into their instrument to truly master it, but that's just my opinion too.  perhaps its a low tolerance for their own lack of ability, or a lack of discipline or something,  i dont' know.

yes, tongue blocking requires some effort and discipline to learn, and even more to master, but then again, the harmonica IS a musical instrument, not an easy to use, anyone can be a prodigy toy, right?

imo, pucker's true home is with diatonic players where wailing and bending and all other manner of gimmickry is part and parcel of playing the instrument.  on a chromatic i think pucker is a waste of time and a limitation on the true expressive range of the instrument.  apologies to pete ruth and howard levy, who really ARE masters and have a master's appreciation of emotional expression in music. 

and to top off my disappointment tonight is reading a post by someone who actually does a good job of playing harmonica using pucker telling beginners that tongue blocking is a sure road to harmonica heck, or at least an insurmountable handicap.  whether that's ignorance or arrogance, i can't tell.

okay, that's me with restraint in place.    <sigh>  oh well,  some days better than others!

if nothing else aj, between the two of us, we've probably started up yet another spirited debate on the pros and cons of both techniques!  :)  or i've invited a flood of flame on myself.   oh well! :)

iowaplayer
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Offline Gnarly He Man

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2012, 12:05:39 AM »
Wow! Really? Sorry . . .
At the end of the day it's all 24-7

Offline Grizzly

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2012, 05:48:02 AM »
Hey, iowaplayer, I'm with you most of the way, and my differences of opinion are too small to mention. Over-emoting, emotional playing, may not be the province of puckering exclusively, but I fully understand why you perceive it as such.

And Age is an excellent example of what not to do. To paraphrase a quote about bagpipes, a gentleman is someone who knows how to emote on harmonica and chooses not to.

Opinions vary. I took issue a couple of years ago with a YouTube of a player's version of Rachmaninoff's "Vocalise," and got drubbed by people on this list who liked his over-the-top, syrupy, out-of-rhythm stylization. If Sergei were alive today, he'd be rolling over in his grave. Yet the style seemed to be appropriate for music from his Latin roots. I don't know whether he  :-* or :P.

On my short list of "good" puckerers is Slideman Slim Heilpern, and of good tongue block articulators is Robert Bonfiglio.

Tom
Famous I don't know about. It's hard to be famous and alive. I just want to play music every day and hear someone say, 'Thanks, that was great, here's some money, same time tomorrow, okay?' -- Terry Pratchett, Soul Music

Offline Winslow Yerxa

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2012, 09:01:57 AM »
Okay, Hilly just mentioned the "GroveTongue/U-block". While that method (IMO) may give the player the illusive "single note" it does nothing else but cheat the player out of either the mellow sound of the Tongue-block OR the tonal variation of the Pucker. In other words, limits your musical prowess to that of playing "one fingered piano."

Leo Diamond had a hugely rich tone and he was a U-blocker. So was Norton Buffalo.

Offline Winslow Yerxa

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2012, 09:10:35 AM »
Bad taste in playing music has no relation to which embouchure you choose.

Harmonica players, whatever means they use to isolate a single hole, are often guilty of bending notes just because they can, not because it expresses or adds to the music. Likewise they may use had wahs and poorly controlled (and ill-considered) hand or throat vibrato, chord notes that don't fit the underlying harmony, and a variety of other devices.

Often, employment of these devices isn't even over-emoting. It's just schtick. Doing it because the player likes the idea of making those sounds, just because those sounds are available and attractive, regardless of whether the sounds belong or whether they add to or detract from the music.

So really we have three separate topics going here:

-  Embouchure (which is actually irrelevant to the underlying complaints)

- Inappropriate use of technical devices that are characteristic of the harmonica

- Emotional expression that obscures the intent of the composer.

Offline A.J.Fedor

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2012, 09:33:27 AM »
Okay, Hilly just mentioned the "GroveTongue/U-block". While that method (IMO) may give the player the illusive "single note" it does nothing else but cheat the player out of either the mellow sound of the Tongue-block OR the tonal variation of the Pucker. In other words, limits your musical prowess to that of playing "one fingered piano."

Leo Diamond had a hugely rich tone and he was a U-blocker. So was Norton Buffalo.

Okay Winslow! Ya got me!  :o  (I kinda liked Leo Diamond)
I only personally know of a dozen or so and all are very mechanical sounding.

@ge
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 09:35:28 AM by A.J.Fedor »
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Offline A.J.Fedor

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Re: Your pucker
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2012, 09:36:13 AM »
right on aj!!  pucker allows a player almost limitless ability to create tonal variation on the harmonica.   mostly over-emotional, hammy, amateurish variations in tone.

And . . . . here's my opinion (that's what we do here ;D ) ha ha !

Sorry but my positions holds. Strangely enough, the majority of players ~I~ find that use the Adler'esque "barking," "honking" and idiotic "rrrrrruccahchuckahs" are Tongue blockers. (go figure) Not that the temptation to incorporate that nonsense isn't equally spread across all embrasurees. (hey! a new word! :o ) I don't believe it's an embrasure thing; but rather a head thing. If the stuff in your head is obnoxious, make no mistake; it will find a way to manifest itself in your music, regardless of your embrasure.

I used to have fun tweaking tongue blockers by talking about "lup-lup" players, causing them to hurl cyber-tomatoes, cabbages and other soft juicy missiles.  :) (it wuzza lotta fun) Lup-lup players are the ones so locked into the "TBTB" (textbook tongue block) that they all sound the same and have that "lup-lup" characteristic sound produced by the set in stone, method printed on that little piece of wax paper that came with your new Hohner harmonica. "DO IT THIS WAY OR DIE!!"  IMO, anything that leaves so little room for modification, will "bleed" that "bondage" over to other areas of ones (would-be) creativity. Nah! Not me bro! ;D

I can not only smell "bondage" a mile off, but gravitate toward anything that allows me to fly by the seat of my pants, while letting me retain my sense of what is and/or is not tacky or obnoxious, over-emotional, hammy, amateurish.

Just my opinion.  8)

@ge
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 09:49:34 AM by A.J.Fedor »
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