NEW! Critics Corner / CritiqueMeister

[A.J.Fedor]

There's a new one over in CritiqueMeister with another one coming up in a day or so. Check'em out!
SlideMeister

[ElkRiverHarmonicas]

I went over there, but all I could see were the songs that were up before.

[A.J.Fedor]

Siciliano is the newest one and just got some reviews today

[ElkRiverHarmonicas]

Oh, OK. I thought I had seen that a couple days ago. I must have been mistaken.

[Gwythion]

Is it OK for a complete beginner to use this system (or is it just for intermediate level players and above?)

If yes, can I flag up up that this is my first effort ?

[Ziggy]

Is it OK for a complete beginner to use this system (or is it just for intermediate level players and above?)

If yes, can I flag up up that this is my first effort ?

I know nothing about the rules, but I will tell you of my own experience.
I put up a very raw recording, because I thought that is what they wanted. No background, no over dubs, First take .
While the comments were not unkind, they were negative enough that I put down the harmonica for three months.
 My wife got me playing again.
My advice..... Don't do it...unless you are very, very good at receiving criticism!
Ziggy

[A.J.Fedor]

Okay!  Now you got my attention.
Gwythion, ignore that last statement 
 
First of all, I am not a judge (critic whatever) but I have both heard every entry, and read every critique. While I can't say who played each piece, I will say that I've yet to read an overly critical review of any of the submissions. Methinks the gentileman who was just complaining, is/was just overly sensitive    Hey none of us are beyond constructive criticism. 

The whole idea behind CritiqueMeister is not to get a a pat on the back as much as it is to see how we can improve our tone, technique, articulation or whatever.

Here's a line from what I said describing the judging process:

Are the judges going to be tough?
Of course! but they're also understanding. They weren't always professionals, and therefore know the meaning of encouragement as well constructive criticism. So, while they won't “baby” you, neither will they degrade or discourage you. On the other hand, they're not gonna “stroke” you either.  Bear in mind also that while these guys are professionals, they're also individuals; so you may even get varying opinions. What you'll have to do consider all the comments from all sources (not just the good or bad ones) The whole idea here is to grow any way we can.

I suggest you read everything I posted on the subject for details and feel free to send something in whenever the mood hits you. Don't worry, the judges aren't there to beat anyone up.

SlideMeister

[harpman54]

I know nothing about the rules, but I will tell you of my own experience.
I put up a very raw recording, because I thought that is what they wanted. No background, no over dubs, First take .
While the comments were not unkind, they were negative enough that I put down the harmonica for three months.
 My wife got me playing again.
My advice..... Don't do it...unless you are very, very good at receiving criticism!
Ziggy

Don't let criticism stop you. It didn't stop Larry Adler. When he was 14 he auditioned for Borrah Minevitch, and failed the audition being told "Kid, you stink" by Minevitch. Larry wasn't good at taking criticism either,
he never auditioned with another harmonica band. But he didn't let the criticism keep him from becoming a virtuoso.

bill

[ElkRiverHarmonicas]

The critiquemeister is not a place to get your ego stroked, that's for sure. If it were, it would be totally worthless and a waste of time.
The only thing one gains by putting a harp down down is nothing... nothing but three months of your life to advance your skill that you will never be able to relive. Kudos to your wife.
I am actually a very sensitive person and my feelings are easily hurt. But, as a writer, I learned long ago, while I was still in college, to separate myself from, say, a short story. Instead of hearing "You suck" during a critique of writing - and your mind is totally trained to hear "you suck" - I hear "it sucks." Once you train yourself to do that, you can separate yourself from the work. Now, you are able to hear the rest of it, "it sucks because of ... and here's how to make it better."

I shall out myself as a public service.
Now back in June, I submitted Asokan Farewell to the critiquemeister. Now the critiquers said, and I will sum it in a nutshell "It sucks." But, what they said was "it sucks because" and I paid attention to that. Most significant was the Council of Critiquemeister Elders telling me the "wah wah" stuff I was doing sucked.
I paid attention. I worked on the things they said. I quit using hand vibratto and instead worked on a throat vibratto which I had never done - and I'd been playing diatonic since age five, and I was an old dog and this was a new trick.
Now, I've still a ways to go, but listen to the Asokan Farewell I did in June
http://www.slidemeister.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2600

Now check out this from December:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2a-JPtZb0M
This next one is probably more comparable to Asokan Farewell, actually the chromatic used in the second song "Last Days on Earth" is the same 270 D used for Asokan Farewell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh3EskBhHvI

I'm not saying the new stuff is great, I'm still new to chromatic after all. BUT, there is a huge difference. Many, nay, most of the changes you see in playing skill are a direct result of the browbeating I got from the Critiquemeister Council of Elders. Not just the things they said, but the directions they got me thinking in. I took my chromatic playing in directions I never would have otherwise. Example: somebody mentioned the double stops were mostly nice, I took that and ran with it. I use them all the time now.

[Ziggy]

I am glad you benefited from your experience.

However, the end result of my experience was totally negative. Even tho I have continued to play, I practice about 1/5 of the amount , and I used to learn at least 2 songs a week... since my Critique I have learned a total of 6 songs.
I have lost my zeal for the harp. Because I thought I was doing good, and because others told me I was doing good I had a gung ho approach to the harmonica. But when "pros" tell me that I have little ability, I feel like I am wasting time. And at 55 years old I do not have any time to waste.

I could go on and rant on this topic...but,  I just feel it is my duty to warn others that there could be a negative impact...so be careful.

Maybe I am too sensitive...I doubt it. After all I did go from 20/20 vision to 20/1000 vision in ten years and took it on the chin. Not much rocks me.

But I honestly feel, if I had not done the Critiquemeister I would be a much better plater than I am now.
And isn't that the exact opposite of its goal?
Ziggy

[Gnarly He Man]

You will not find me posting to CritiqueMeister--
However, it's not because I don't need improvement.
Rather, it is that I feel I am aware of my failures, and will continue to work on them.
I do post to YouTube, so if you want to see what imperfection sounds like, you can seek those files . . .
But I want to offer a kind word to those who receive criticism, and it is this--
As long as you benefit from playing, take the words of critics as their perspective--it's a big world, and no one has all the answers.
I am reminded of an early episode from the life of Charlie Parker--

At the beginning of 1936, Charlie experiences his famous humiliation at the hands of Jo Jones, as depicted in the well-intentioned Eastwood movie, 'Bird'. The story is told that whilst Charlie was attempting to jam, Jones threw a cymbal on the floor, in 'gong show' assessment of Parker's playing, embarrassing Charlie who left the club in tears. Strangely, Jo Jones makes no mention of this incident in any of the numerous interviews he gave about his life and although Charlie mentions being laughed at in the Stearns interview and remembers a possible embarrassment at the hands of the Kansas City Rockets, there is only one eyewitness account. Gene Ramey said, "Jo Jones waited until Bird started to play and, suddenly, in order to show how he felt about Bird, he threw the a cymbal across the dance floor. It fell with a deafening sound, and in humiliation, packed up his instrument and left.

This is from http://www.birdlives.co.uk/content/view/5/7/
Don't play to please others, please yourself--and recognize when it doesn't work, if you can, so that you may spare others the burden of schooling you 
Gary

[Atsuko]

To Ziggy:
I feel a pain you went through and am glad that you are back playing again after 3 months of say, an agony and, disappointments. 

Besides technical advices that we benefit from pros, we also know that scoring system is subjective.  Some judges like this way and others like the other way. If there was an additional judge, your score may have been different too.  So, please don't feel too bad...

I'm planning to use this critique corner to benefit just for myself, in other words, I'll try not to compare my scores with other players.

A.J. told me that there are no restrictions of how many times we can send music in. So I'm planning to send my music in every few months if I'm ready. I'll be happy if I get low scores at the beginning and bring up the scores higher each time I send in. 

So, to Gwythion:  Be brave !!!!!   Just send in !!!  If you are a beginner, expect that you might get score "1" but do not get discouraged; Just think that it's a bitter medicine to swallow but you will be OK. 

Atsuko

[ElkRiverHarmonicas]

Youtube is worse.

A couple of comments that REALLY hurt me.

"Whose that redneck whu can't play?"

"The harmonica playing was horrible."

I get that stuff all the time and it hurts. Of course the people who say those things, never have any videos of their own, and have contributed nothing to world, besides being emotional parasites, but I do not take cruelness well, both of those, and others still bother me. But you gotta man up and play the thing.

[A.J.Fedor]

I could say a lot here, but lemme just give you some personal thoughts:
(I'll just make these up on the fly)

Don't take yourself too seriously cuz none of us are good enough not to have something that could be improved on.

Welcome ANY advise that you can use as a step in the stairway to where you want to be; while realizing you'll never get there.

There's nowhere for a ripe apple to go but rotten - green apples are honest with themselves and have nothin' to loose and everything to gain. (stay green for at least the first hundred-twenty years) 

I've heard Toots make mistakes and laugh about it. (there's a lesson there)

Don't let bitterness rule ya; it'll bleed off and contaminate your whole life

HAVE FUN! That will bleed off and enrich your life and the lives of those around you.

If being perfect would make us rich, we'd all die of starvation!

SlideMeister

[rgn39]

I'm kind of in the middle on this one. I would say if you are an overly sensitive type then I would be cautious about posting. Many people do not take criticism well and Im sure a lot of beginners put their harps down after recieving negative comments early on. If you are serious about learning then you must be ready to be taught and I would say fire away because you will get the benefit of many years of experience for free. I posted a link awhile back to a song I did and I think I was expecting a pat on the back but got mostly polite silence however two gentlemen did weigh in and pointed out how far off my timing was which I was not even aware of. One was even kind enough to show me exactly where and when I was going wrong. It was a valuable lesson and when I play that video now I wince a bit because I can see how far off I was. If you dont know youre making mistakes how can you correct them? I do not mean to imply that you will recieve any rude or negative remarks here but rather that some people intrepret no comments or constructive criticism as negative.

[harpman54]

This is a very good topic. As I reflect on it, I'm wondering whether it is best to receive a bit of criticism and benefit from it, or gushing praise that isn't genuine and maintain the status quo and in reality remain a sub-par player. Over the course of my music career I can genuinely say that there are, as in mountain climbing, plateaus we reach and linger at for a while. Then, we get one of those breakthrough moments and we begin climbing again toward yet another plateau. I've dealt with it often, and there are times when I think to myself that all my 'stuff' is sounding the same, or stale....nothing new or innovative. It is those times when a bit of honest critique might be enough to drive me to trying something new, different passing notes, different ascending or descending arpeggios, anything to break out of the rut. We all perform for the adoration, admit it. We perform to wow the crowd, to please ourselves. When it doesn't happen it is a blow to the ego, a bruise to the hours of practice we've put in, but let it serve to help you cop an attitude toward doing even better. I had a night where I came off stage between sets and a woman in the crowd said to me, "your playing sounds like Howard Levy, really". Okay, a nice complement but even I know I don't have Howard Levy's chops, skills, etc. Only Howard Levy has those. So while it was a nice thing to say, I think I'd much rather have someone tell me to take some risk with my playing, and get out of my comfort zone. Because I play a lot of blues on the diatonic, maybe someone needs to tell me "hey, how's about some 1st or 3rd position stuff?" The best critique I ever had was when my late, great, band mate Rock Bottom told me "if I hear you play 4 draw again, I'm gonna kill ya", a sure sign I was 'lingering' on the low end of the harp too often.

Think about it this way too....if a vintner didn't respond to wine critiques, a chef didn't respond to his restaurant reviews, a car maker or dress designer, artist, or other didn't listen to their critics they'd never improve. Make criticism an ally.

bill

[Gwythion]

Wow! That was a big response to my post!
 

Thanks. I will improve my first tune a little more and then submit it.

What the heck!!!

[Gwythion]

Ziggy,

Thanks for your posts, by the way. I hope that you get back to playing as much as you used to.

You gave this subject a needed perspective. It's easier to take a punch when you know its coming.

[rgn39]

Ziggy

I went through all the posts on CritiqueMeister and theyre all better than anything I can play. Some were better than others but all were pretty decent, imho. If one of those was yours then its a shame you put it down over a few comments. The lowest rating I saw there was a 5 or a 6. Heck I would be tickled to death to get that at this stage of the game. If a few more newer players posted it would make it easier for other new players.

[Grizzly]

It's always a blow when you think you're hot s**t and someone pokes holes in your balloon. The bigger the ego, the bigger the blow, perhaps. Or, the more fragile the ego …

Florence Foster Jenkins made a career out of performing badly, but had no clue how bad she was. But she entertained thousands who would come to hear her sing, just to be able to laugh at her behind their programs.

Being critiqued is a valuable tool, as long as you can separate out the criticism from the personal, as Dave says. It's not the only arrow in the quivver, though. Listening to your own recordings, if done dispassionately, can be beneficial.

For years, I told myself I wasn't good enough to perform solo in public (different instrument, different era). Then a friend pointed out that I only needed to be good enough. It made a big difference, and led to several gigs over the years.

Perfection is a goal, not an ideal. And it is essentially unattainable. But we strive for improvement, to please ourselves above anything. An audience can sense that, and enjoy what you're enjoying. We can benefit from Foster Jenkins' example.

Tom

[Wendellfiddler]

I am glad you benefited from your experience.

since my Critique I have learned a total of 6 songs.
I have lost my zeal for the harp. Because I thought I was doing good, and because others told me I was doing good I had a gung ho approach to the harmonica. But when "pros" tell me that I have little ability, I feel like I am wasting time. And at 55 years old I do not have any time to waste.

Ziggy

Ouch, Ziggy!    I hope you can find a way to discover that it isn't about how people respond to your music, it's about what you get out of making it - totally.  The reason most folks who we percieve to play well are able to do that is because they enjoyed - or were driven for some reason - to practice.   It's all about enjoying the process - critique will always be subjective, which doesn't mean it isn't useful, but it also shouldn't be "fatal".   Inspiration really needs to come from within, but there are ways to stimulate it.  Try learning about musicians or artists who overcame huge odds because of physical or other disabling barriers to become excellent musicians in thier own way.   There are many of those.  

Unfortunately, in my opinion, because of the mass media we are always comparing ourselves to the media we hear - it's a wonderful resource, but in the old days, the music you and your neighbors made was the only music you would ever hear.  That's a good spirit to keep in mind sometimes.

doug tanner

[ElkRiverHarmonicas]

Ziggy, I know we've all been saying stuff to you, but I want to make sure it's clear that you have a valid point and it took some courage to post it.

I'll pass along a story. My grandfather is an awesome mandolin player (www.elkriverharmonicas.com/cecilpayne.html) and he can play numerous instruments exceptionally well. He played fiddle, guitar, mandolin harmonica. Had he made some different decisions, he could have been famous. He is/was that talented.
Side story here, there were no harmonica players around in rural Roane County, W.Va. He hadn't really heard anything but DeFord Bailey on the radio and he never really tried to copy DeFord, in fact, he never really played the harp at the time of this story, he carried a D Marine Band around for tuning the guitar. Here's how he described it:
“I figured out that when you breathed in on those bottom notes together, it made an A chord. So, I just started playing it in A and it sounded pretty good.”
Now, I knew him as a mandolin player primarily, because that's the phase he was in when I was old enough to remember this stuff. I remember going with him to a music store in Birch River (an hour drive away) and he grabbed this Gibson F-5 off the wall and played that funky intro Bill Monroe plays on “The New Muleskinner Blues.” It was the coolest thing I'd ever heard. I decided right then, I was going to get serious about music.
I had a Fender Stratocaster and amp, I traded that for a mandolin. After a few months, I worked up this rendition of nine pound hammer that I thought was awesome.

So, I played the mandolin for grandpa, whom I consider a musical god. I finish, I'm expecting the usual pat newbies get on the back for trying “you're coming along great,” etc.
What he says is “If you ain't got timing, you ain't got sh..”

THAT had me leery of playing for a while and I didn't play in front of anyone for a long time. But it made me absolutely paranoid of time to the point I developed a good sense of it. Looking back, it's the best thing that happened to me musically. Then, I could have died.

[Grizzly]

Great story, Dave! Sage advice: "If you ain't got timing …"

Tom

[pyro_fire60099]

HI EVERBODY! I just got done listening to all the entries in CritiqueMeister, and really enjoyed them all, and who am I ? a HARMONICA NUT, each song was an extension of someones soul laced in fear to adrenaline, shaping each note to perfection, tellling a story, for those entries, Thank-you. Remember, the Judges are there to help you and Realize they are not perfect, your music made an impact on me. For myself through the years of playing the chord harmonica and when I joined the Windy City Harmonica club and played songs for AL Fiore, I had many Critique sessions with him and then having him play the parts to show me what he meant, sure it burst my bubble, but he followed through and I learned more as he showed me more, this is what's missing in the CritiqueMeister, It's not a perfect world, but I wonder if the Judges would consider along with the comments, adding a music response, Just a thought, Wally Peterman

[harpman54]

but I wonder if the Judges would consider along with the comments, adding a music response, Just a thought, Wally Peterman

Cool idea. Then we could judge the judge's responses!

bill

[Wendellfiddler]

And another sort of story - many years ago I was participating in a weekly jam session with a bunch of banjo and fiddle players - they would gather every Sunday in the park and rotated between various people's homes in the winter.  There was a fellow there who I thought was somewhat "hopeless" in the sense that it took him much longer to learn tunes than anyone else and he clearly struggled with the simplist things - and his timing was terrible.  We all liked him and tried our best to help him and we tolerated his struggles, you might say.   I, and believe everyone else, admired his persistence and love of the experience.  

It happened that I left town and I didn't see that person or anyone else in that group for about ten years.   The next time I saw him he was entered in a major banjo contest - and low and behold he won.  I had the opportunity to play with him that day and it was incredible what he had learned to do on his instrument.  Clearly, it took him longer than it might have taken some others, but he got there - and that would have been clear to me whether he had won the contest or not.  

I also applaud Ziggy for being brave enough to share his frustration.  May the force be with you, Ziggy.  Have patience.

Doug

[pyro_fire60099]

  Well it is in the CritiqueMeister guide lines "Can the judge add an instructive sound file in response to a critique entry?
Although not required, the judge may submit a sound file as an example, as: "Try to play it something like this . . ." if he/she chooses to do so"

  I just feel more will be accomplish if this would happen

[rgn39]

 Couldn't we also have a Peanut Gallery section below the judges comments. I would have liked to told some of those people how much I liked their work.

[A.J.Fedor]

Incorporating a peanut gallery into the CritiqueMeister page would involve way too much security and stuff. BUT, I suppose nothin' would stop anyone from opening a thread, as long as it didn't threaten to second guess the judges (cuz they are the ones who should have the most to say since they ARE pros.)

Then too, I suppose you could leave a comment on your own new thread, but don't expect the player to actually respond cuz doing so would blow his/her cover and they'd loose their anonymity.   

Complicated world huh? 

@ge

[harpman54]

Perhaps an area where people could post their own playing and let the non-pro's comment? No anonymity, it'd be for the brave but it might make it more peer to peer kind of feedback. I wonder how that might work.

bill