Newton Fourkey

[oldstudent]

Important news for anyone who has ever considered buying a fourkey harmonica:
Seydel is now selling Soloist Pro 12 Steel harmonicas that can be configured in fourkey tuning.  So thanks to Seydel, fourkey harmonicas with a range of 2.5 octaves are now commercially available!

I have a "G" fourkey (which plays the G, D, A, E major scales without bending) with the following layout:
Blow  E4  G4  A4  C5  D5  E5  G5  A5  C6  D6  E6  G6
Hole  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12
Draw  F#4 G#4 B4  C#5 D#5 F#5 G#5 B5  C#6 D#6 F#6 A6
This layout remains feasible if you lower everything by 1 semitone to get an "F#" fourkey or if you raise everything by 1, 2, or 3 semitones, to get an "Ab" "A" or "Bb" fourkey.

I also have a high "Bb" fourkey (playing Bb, F, C, G major scales) in this layout, and it is a bit on the high side to my taste.  But I really like the "G" fourkey in this layout, and I have just ordered the "Ab" version:
Blow  F4  G#4 A#4 C#5 D#5 F5  G#5 A#5 C#6 D#6 F6  G#6
Hole  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12
Draw  G4  A4  C5  D5  E5  G5  A5  C6  D6  E6  G6  A#6

If you were willing to buy just two fourkey harps (and configurable 12-hole harmonicas with steel reeds are not going to be cheap), I could suggest getting the "G" and the "Ab" in this layout, one for the sharp keys (G, D, A, E), and the other for the flat keys (Ab, Eb, Bb, F).  The "Bb" in this layout would be needed to play C major without bends, but the key of C can also be played in 5th position on the "Ab" harp, with bending only needed for the 7th note B.

(Note: My harmonicas here differ from the standard fourkey layout by having the high 12-draw raised a semitone above the fourkey pattern.  This deviation from the fourkey pattern seems useful in 10-hole harmonicas, to give them a bit more range, but it may be less valuable in the 12-hole harmonica.)

[Gnarly He Man]

Good for Seydel--and good for us!

[jazmaan]

Very cool!  I only wish they would make it in Eb, but your suggestion of G and Ab is do-able.   And since I already have a 14 hole Fourkey in Eb,  it will be nice to have those other keys.  Thanks for the news!

[oldstudent]

I've been playing my Seydel Soloist Pro 12-hole steel harmonicas a lot over the past several weeks.  They have me playing higher than I was used to, but I have come to really like the tone of the instruments and the extra range that they offer.
Jazmaan, you were wishing for an Eb version.  We could have that if we used another layout, starting with the 3rd-major-position tonic in the first hole.  Here is the layout for an Eb fourkey (playing Eb, Bb, F, C major scales) that is feasible in the Soloist Pro 12 Steel:

Blow  F4  G#4 A#4 C5  D#5 F5  G#5 A#5 C6  D#6 F6  G#6
Hole  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10  11  12
Draw  G4  A4  B4  D5  E5  G5  A5  B5  D6  E6  G6  A6

This layout is also feasible two semitones up or down from Eb.  That is, Seydel can also make Soloist Pro 12 Steel versions of this layout for a Db fourkey (playing Db, Ab, Eb, Bb major scales), D fourkey (playing D, A, E, B major scales), E fourkey (playing E, B, F#, Db major scales), and F fourkey (playing F, C, G, D major scales).  These are good ranges, and I like the fact that the layout has well-centered octaves in 1st, 2nd, and 4th positions.  I think that one of these could be worth a try!

[jazmaan]

That's an interesting idea.  Lots of bottom end on that harp!   But I'm pretty satisfied with my 14 hole 365,  hard to see myself going back to 12 holes now.   The person who really should be talking to you about this is Whistleman.   He recently acquired a 10 hole Eb and is already itching for a 12 hole Eb but couldn't figure out how to get the Seydel Configurator to make one.   I hope he sees this post!  I've already told him to consult you.   I'm not sure if your layout is exactly what he needs.  He says he's a trombone player and wants a harp that approximates the range of the trombone.   He thought a couple extra holes on the bottom of an Eb 10 hole would be helpful.

[whistleman123]

  As Jaz said, I'm loving my Seydel Eb four key Session Steel, but would love to have two extra holes on the bottom end. It would be an A#/Bb fourkey based on the Soloist Pro 12 steel. Here's why. Because of my history as a jazz trombonist, I know that most melodies are played between low Bb concert and high C concert. Most of the solo work I did didn't go below F and up to high C. An A#/Bb 12 hole fourkey would fit these specifications just great. Unfortunately the Seydel Configurator stops taking the note values needed on hole 9 on the top plate and hole 10 on the bottom plate.
  I'd really like to have the harp I just described, and am thinking about going custom. But I need to play around with my 10 hole a while longer before I take the plunge. I'm getting very comfortable with melodies in F, Bb, G, C, G, and Eb. I've been working patterns and arpeggios in these keys too, which is going more slowly. Darn, I haven't practiced this much since college!!! My goal is to have one harp that "Does it all", at least for me.

[oldstudent]

Because fourkey tuning is not symmetric, sometimes the question of which key to use for a song can hold some surprises.  This week I have been working on learning "Cry me a river" on a C# fourkey.   My sheet music says its in Eb, and that suggests that it would be best played on an F# or C# or Ab or Eb fourkey.  But I just realized that it lays really beautifully on a Bb fourkey.
The wonderful Harping software (from http://www.harpingmidi.com/) is very useful for making such discoveries.

[whistleman123]

Because fourkey tuning is not symmetric, sometimes the question of which key to use for a song can hold some surprises.  This week I have been working on learning "Cry me a river" on a C# fourkey.   My sheet music says its in Eb, and that suggests that it would be best played on an F# or C# or Ab or Eb fourkey.  But I just realized that it lays really beautifully on a Bb fourkey.
The wonderful Harping software (from http://www.harpingmidi.com/) is very useful for making such discoveries.

Currently I only have one Fourkey harp. It' an Eb. I find that I have to "play around" with a tune just to make it "fit" onto the 10 hole harp. I'm finding that I usually end up all the way up to hole 10 which I would rather save four tastey little solo licks and play the meat of the tune down lower.Hopefully this will change when I get my 12 hole Bb fourkey. My goal is to be able to play in the usuall "horn" keys so I can sit in with some local guys. 12 hole Bb fourkey should make this possible.

[Gnarly He Man]

Still waiting on that Seydel . . .

[oldstudent]

Currently I only have one Fourkey harp. It' an Eb. I find that I have to "play around" with a tune just to make it "fit" onto the 10 hole harp. I'm finding that I usually end up all the way up to hole 10.

I had the same problem of going off the top of the instrument when I first tried Seydel's prescribed fourkey layout.  So in 2009 I switched to a fourkey layout that is offset one hole higher than what Andy Newton first suggested in 2007.  I also raised the high hole-10 draw note a semitone, to get a range of two full octaves, with the high and low notes being the tonic of the 3rd major position. So my 10-hole Eb fourkey is:
Blow  F4  G#4 A#4 C5  D#5 F5  G#5 A#5 C6  D#6
Hole  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10
Draw  G4  A4  B4  D5  E5  G5  A5  B5  D6  F6
This is the 10-hole layout that I have been using for the past three years. 

[whistleman123]

Still waiting on that Seydel . . .

ANTICIPATION.....sounds like a good song title!

[whistleman123]

Currently I only have one Fourkey harp. It' an Eb. I find that I have to "play around" with a tune just to make it "fit" onto the 10 hole harp. I'm finding that I usually end up all the way up to hole 10.

I had the same problem of going off the top of the instrument when I first tried Seydel's prescribed fourkey layout.  So in 2009 I switched to a fourkey layout that is offset one hole higher than what Andy Newton first suggested in 2007.  I also raised the high hole-10 draw note a semitone, to get a range of two full octaves, with the high and low notes being the tonic of the 3rd major position. So my 10-hole Eb fourkey is:
Blow  F4  G#4 A#4 C5  D#5 F5  G#5 A#5 C6  D#6
Hole  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10
Draw  G4  A4  B4  D5  E5  G5  A5  B5  D6  F6
This is the 10-hole layout that I have been using for the past three years.

Very interesting solution! My thinking is to put a little more room on the bottom end and give it almost a "tenor" type feel. I think the big point is that this is a really cool tuning that can be adapted in many different ways. Just learned "Why shouldn't we fall in love" in several different keys. I'm really enjoying this.

[oldstudent]

Like you, I generally prefer to have a tune lay at the lower end of the instrument, if possible.  But also it is usually easiest to play a tune in a fourkey's 4th major position, if possible.  In a fourkey that has the 3rd-position tonic as its low blow-1 note, the low hole 1 contains the subdominant and dominant of the 4th major position.  It's very common for the lowest note of a tune to be the dominant or subdominant (the 5th or 4th note of the major scale), and we can play such tunes in 4th position at the low end of the instrument when the low note is the 3rd position tonic.  Anyway, that is my understanding of why this layout (with 3rd-position tonic as the low-blow-1 note) seems particularly well suited for so many tunes.

[jazmaan]

I feel like I've been neglecting my Fourkey  - the last few YouTube's I've done have all been LeGato Chromatic.   Anyone got any requests or suggestions on what they'd like to hear me tackle next on Fourkey?   What are you guys working on?  (Nice to be able to say "guys" in the plural, now that its not just me and Roger!)

[Gnarly He Man]

And it's nice to be "one of the guys" 
Gotta admit tho, most of what I am doing with the Fourkey (when I get to it) is just playing it and getting used to the layout.
It's obvious you (Jazmaan) are making this tuning your primary focus--I am not that committed.
I still desire to learn the orchestra bebop tuning on slide, and there are other tunings which I routinely use that I must continue to attempt to master.
Oh, and I have that new harmonizer/vocal processor to learn to use.
I also have some upcoming gigs that will be distracting me.
The one thing I will say is that it is much more satisfying to learn this tuning on an instrument that doesn't run out of notes--so that means 12 or 14 holes, and also a range that suits your sensibilities.

[whistleman123]

And it's nice to be "one of the guys" 
Gotta admit tho, most of what I am doing with the Fourkey (when I get to it) is just playing it and getting used to the layout.
It's obvious you (Jazmaan) are making this tuning your primary focus--I am not that committed.
I still desire to learn the orchestra bebop tuning on slide, and there are other tunings which I routinely use that I must continue to attempt to master.
Oh, and I have that new harmonizer/vocal processor to learn to use.
I also have some upcoming gigs that will be distracting me.
The one thing I will say is that it is much more satisfying to learn this tuning on an instrument that doesn't run out of notes--so that means 12 or 14 holes, and also a range that suits your sensibilities.

Hi Jaz,
  I've been playing my 10 hole Eb alot and having a ball. I had the same epiphany moment you spoke of where I could suddenly play some new tunes by ear without too much stumbling and also read the heads off lead sheets! Pretty cool. I just learned an up tempo version of I'll Take Romance in 4 off an old Eydie Gormey album. I wanted to tackle Let's Fall In Love, but due to range restrictions I'll have to wait for my new Bb 12 hole to show up. I'm also working up a scorching very up tempo version of Hello Young Lovers that I used to play with a couple of big bands in the 70's.
I can't tell you how excited I am about getting the 12 hole Bb. I just found out it's enroute to Gary for final modification. Now I have to start thinking about how to mike it and amplify it. I was playing some duets with a tenor player the other day and couldn't play it loud enough accoustically to be heard. I'm thinking just a small Cube 30 with a little reverb but I don't know what kind of mic to buy. I play clean and don't cup at all. Any suggestions?

[Gnarly He Man]

I like and have been using the FireBall by Audix, it's small enough to hold in your left hand along with the harmonica, and it's very clean.

[oldstudent]

Since Seydel does not yet offer fourkey templates for the Soloist Pro 12 configurator, I have posted a guide to the two different layouts for 12-hole fourkey harmonicas that are feasible in the Soloist Pro 12 Steel and with which you can cover the twelve major keys with five harmonicas.  The guide is at
http://home.comcast.net/~rbmy/fourkey12s.pdf

[jazmaan]

Thanks Roger.   But I'm curious.  I know you own a 14 hole Fourkey.  Doesn't that spoil you for playing shorter harps?   I know I play my 14 holer almost exclusively.

[oldstudent]

The 14-hole fourkey just seems too big, and I've never gotten used to its large size.  I get lost in it.
There were several tunes that I had been wanting to play on a 12-hole fourkey because I had difficulty making them fit in my 10-hole instruments, but as soon as the 12-hole fourkeys actually became available, I suddenly discovered other ways to make each of them fit very nicely in a 10-hole.  The truth is that playing complex Chromatic tunes in their "right" key becomes much easier to accomplish if your stack of 10-hole fourkeys includes one for each of the twelve keys (regardless of the "fourkey" name).  So like any good harmonica player, I've accumulated a lot of them, but I really like playing big Chromatic tunes on these little diatonics.

You've posted some wonderful videos on the Legato recently, but I hope you'll also show us more of what you like to play on the fourkey.  I should not try to advise you on what to play, but it is worth talking about what kinds of tunes might be particularly well suited for a fourkey.  Two great tunes which I offered to present on the fourkey this spring at the Oldtown School's blues harp class recital are Mood Indigo and Round Midnight, which you originally suggested to me.  They only had time for me to play Mood Indigo, but people were very interested in what kind of harp I was using for it.

[jazmaan]

"Round Midnight" sounds like a good tune for me tackle next on Fourkey.  Thanks for the suggestion!

[Bluesy]

Not to rain on anybody's fourkey parade, and certainly not on Jazmaan, who has put so much commendable work into learning it, but just as the current piano keyboard has been demonstrated over the centuries to be the most versatile, the solo-tuned chromatic harp will probably prove to be the most adaptable and sensible layout. I think that its choice by the world's top players provides that evidence. (With a nod toward the bebop layout as a small evolutionary improvement but not a radical departure).

Tom/

[oldstudent]

Thanks, Tom, but here in this corner of Slidemeister the conversation about fourkey tuning is really about how to make a Chromatic instrument in the shape of a diatonic harmonica (no button, two reeds per hole), without needing overblows.  (Thanks to the owner for supporting such discussion here in Banter.)
I'd agree with you that a half-valved bebop-tuned diatonic is the closest thing to fourkey tuning in terms of allowing Chromatic play in a diatonic instrument.  For both tunings, the bends are contiguous group in the circle of fifths (as I recently noted in the "Altered Tunings: True vs Power" thread).  A half-valved bebop-tuned harp needs four bends (2 draw bends and 2 half-valved blow bends) to fill the Chromatic scale, but these four notes are clustered together in the circle of fifths.  A fourkey-tuned harp needs only 2 draw bends (one fifth apart) to fill the Chromatic scale, but of course the fourkey needs a fifth hole for each octave.
What is so good about having the bend notes clustered together in the circle of fifths?  As Jazmaan has noted, then you get the bends where you'd want them, where they make sense musically, for notes that may be heard as departures from the key of the tune.

[jazmaan]

Not to rain on anybody's fourkey parade, and certainly not on Jazmaan, who has put so much commendable work into learning it, but just as the current piano keyboard has been demonstrated over the centuries to be the most versatile, the solo-tuned Chromatic harp will probably prove to be the most adaptable and sensible layout. I think that its choice by the world's top players provides that evidence. (With a nod toward the bebop layout as a small evolutionary improvement but not a radical departure).

Tom/

How has the current piano keyboard "been demonstrated over the centuries to be the most versatile"?   Have there been systematic studies and comparisons done?   The evolution of musical instruments is fascinating to me, but I've never really investigated how other instruments have evolved.   In the case of Solo and Richter layouts,  I wonder how much experimentation was done with other possible layouts?  It was my understanding that Richter was chosen because it was a good fit for the current popular styles in Germany, not because it was particularly versatile.

[Bluesy]

Not to rain on anybody's fourkey parade, and certainly not on Jazmaan, who has put so much commendable work into learning it, but just as the current piano keyboard has been demonstrated over the centuries to be the most versatile, the solo-tuned Chromatic harp will probably prove to be the most adaptable and sensible layout. I think that its choice by the world's top players provides that evidence. (With a nod toward the bebop layout as a small evolutionary improvement but not a radical departure).

Tom/

How has the current piano keyboard "been demonstrated over the centuries to be the most versatile"?   Have there been systematic studies and comparisons done?   The evolution of musical instruments is fascinating to me, but I've never really investigated how other instruments have evolved.   In the case of Solo and Richter layouts,  I wonder how much experimentation was done with other possible layouts?  It was my understanding that Richter was chosen because it was a good fit for the current popular styles in Germany, not because it was particularly versatile.

All instruments evolve, Jazmaan. The clarinet key arrangement is still in flux, as is the flute's, with avid proponents of newer layouts making lots of noise, but the history of the pianoforte from the 18th century forward is pretty settled.
Maybe "versatile" wasn't the best word choice. "Constant" might have been better, or "unchanging". Sorry about that.

Here's a quote from wikipedia;
"The invention of the modern piano is credited to Bartolomeo Cristofori (1655–1731) of Padua, Italy, who was employed by Ferdinando de' Medici, Grand Prince of Tuscany, as the Keeper of the Instruments. He was an expert harpsichord maker, and was well acquainted with the body of knowledge on stringed keyboard instruments. It is not known exactly when Cristofori first built a piano. An inventory made by his employers, the Medici family, indicates the existence of a piano by the year 1700; another document of doubtful authenticity indicates a date of 1698. The three Cristofori pianos that survive today date from the 1720s."

Although many improvements were made in Mozart's and Bach's time, and later, for Brahms and others, they were all improvements in how the hammer struck the string, how dampers worked, the number of strings in a "chior" (the 2 or 3 strings for each note) and mechanical stuff like that.
But the scale of the piano has remained constant throughout the centuries. The same key has been used to sound the same note throughout the years. And that latter aspect is what we harmonicats are altering on our harps, right?

best, tomc/

[Gnarly He Man]

Harmonicas tend to be tuned to thirds; that is the "harmonic" aspect of the device.
Fourkey is revolutionary in that it breaks away from that model.

[jazmaan]

Piano is such a complex instrument to manufacture that I'd be surprised if there were EVER competing keyboard layouts made available to the general public where the public actually had a choice where "survival of the fittest" dictated a winning layout.    Even today with easily rearranged digital layouts for study,  the general public isn't made aware of other possibilities and, much like the harmonica world, there are too many players who have too much invested in learning the traditional piano keyboard for alternate keyboards to ever become more than a curiousity.    But that doesn't mean that the traditional piano layout is the "best" or most versatile any more than the QWERTY typewriter keyboard is actually optimal for computer keyboards.

Guitar may be a better comparison.   The traditional guitar tuning is undoubtedly the most popular,  even though alternate tunings are easily available to any player who wants to try them.   The only alternate guitar tunings that ever get a toehold are the ones used by the most prominent players.   Keith Richards open tunings, Jimi Hendrix drop Eb or drop D tunings,  maybe even some of Joni Mitchell's tunings.     

In the harmonica world probably the most famous use of an altered tuning was Alan "BlindOwl" Wilson's raised 6 tuning.   I wonder how many otherwise strictly Richter guys gave that tuning a go, just to be able to play the Blindowl's solo correctly?  I still carry one in my harpcase.

[whistleman123]

Harmonicas tend to be tuned to thirds; that is the "harmonic" aspect of the device.
Fourkey is revolutionary in that it breaks away from that model.

Since the fourkey tuning turns the harp into a bisonic-non-harmonic instrument maybe we shouldn't call it a Harmonica anymore. How about Bisonica or Solo harp.
All kidding aside, the non-harmonic aspect of fourkey is one of the things that really grabbed me about this tuning. It brings me closer to my musical roots as a horn player.

[jazmaan]

Ok, here I am playing "Satin Doll" on a Seydel Blues Soloist Pro, 12 hole diatonic in Fourkey Tuning (tuned at the  Seydel factory.)  The interesting thing about this demo is that the entire melody is played without ANY bends. Right through the bridge and back there are no draw bends, no blow bends, no overblows, no nothing.   Well maybe some slight valved bending for effect here and there, but that's all.

Speaking of "That's All", please forgive me for throwing that into my solo.  Not to mention half a dozen other quotes that were in the kitchen sink!  They seemed to fit at the time!


http://youtu.be/0SdtR-U_MpA

[Gnarly He Man]

Hey David--
Do you prefer this Seydel to the Missin 365?