Newton Fourkey

[Gnarly He Man]

I dropped jaazman a line to see how he's doing with the chromatic bebop tuning--
he mentioned a tuning on the diatonic he is real happy with, called the "Fourkey"
so here it is, using a solo tuned diatonic.
As I mentioned to him in my reply, "Oh great, another tuning."
 
G
This just in
I was in error on the chart, see the attached document for the proper retuning.
Just ordered a Low C Solist 12 from Seydel, gonna do the work myself and save some money.
 
G

[Eugene Ryan]

Thanks G,

Here's an article explaining the tuning:
http://www.harmonicasessions.com/oct07/Newton.html

I must say, I'm intrigued by the tuning and more so by the principle behind the tuning.   If you were going to play in multiple keys on a diatonic harmonica, sure enough, maybe Richter is not the best tuning due to its irregularity and the deep bends available - hence the bends are harder to keep in tune.   Therefore, the FourKey layout is a pretty clever solution.

But I have to ask - if you have a mostly chromatic tuning on a diatonic, then why not use an airtight chromatic harmonica instead?  I'm not knocking alternately-tuned diatonics as I play them myself BTW.  A big advantage for me of using non-Richter diatonics is the availability of different chords (as well as scales of course  ) - I don't see a lot of chords available in this tuning.  It's probably a good competitor to diminished diatonic - without having to bend to get notes in tune.

Maybe it might be something that once I had one for 20 minutes that I'd love it - not knocking it here - just generating some discussion.  There are already some very good points in the article on advantages of the tuning.

Is Jaazman still about to comment on this one?

Eugene

[Gnarly He Man]

Excellent! I started reading this fine article just now . . .
As to why? I asked him how the bebop tuned chrom was going by pmail, and he replied that this new tuning had captured his interest. I know he already plays well in a variety of tunings (he's made a lot of progress on the XB melody maker, ya know), so I trusted his judgement.
I already have a HFC so airtight chrom is in my bag, but it makes my mouth look funny, and I'm in show business.
He hasn't been posting here so I don't think he's "tuned in" . . .
Thanks and nice to hear from you.
G

[Eugene Ryan]

Hey Gnarly,

Part I of the article is here - more background...
http://www.harmonicasessions.com/aug07/Newton.html

There are some great articles up there on harmonicasessions.com, including some really good ones by Winslow showing corner switching - with sound samples n'all.  It's supposed to be for diatonic players who want to learn chrom, but I'll bet we could all learn something from it!

I wouldn't mind a HFC myself!  It seems like a fine piece of technology, if only to get rid of that leaky ole slide...

Eugene

[Gnarly He Man]

I'll check out part 1--he recommends having Seydel make one with reed replacements, hope I'm not headed for heartache trying to retune blow reed 12 down a perfect fourth
I like the HFC but a button creates an element of precision which is missing with the HFC.
If I played really well (oh you know, like Enrico or say Smo Joe) it would be easier but I usually have to concentrate when I play chrom.
G

[jazmaan]

I just received three more Fourkeys from Seydel today in various keys, plus I've got a 12 hole being made for me privately (Seydel won't make 12 hole Fourkeys), so you can tell I'm very excited about this tuning.   I'll be demoing it at SPAH and expect to generate a lot of interest once people can see and hear it for themselves.  Or maybe not, most harmonica players are pretty hard to sway when it comes to alternate tunings.  Is there an easy way to upload MP3's to this forum?  If so I'll give you all a sneak peek sample of what Fourkey can do!

And before you ask why would I need three other keys - just think about it -- it's called a "Fourkey" not a "Twelvekey"!

Which isn't to say that it's limited to just four keys.  But some keys are easier than others.  As for comparisons to diminished diatonic, there's not much similarity between them.  The main advantage to Fourkey is that there is SO much you can play without even bending a note (or pushing a slide).   diatonic Diminished requires much more bending.   The simplest way I can put it is that out of 12 notes in the chromatic scale, 10 are available UNBENT.   And with proper key selection you can place the two bends right where you'd want them to be, on the flatted seventh and flatted third.   

As for chords, again depending on the key, and with minimal tongue blocking skills, you can play a ii-V7-I sequence without even leaving the blow plane.   In my favorite key (using the 5 blow as the tonic) you have a nice rootless tonic 6/9 chord as your draw.   Other fragments also crop up as you get more familiar with the layout.

[Eugene Ryan]

Thanks for coming back on this, Jazmaan.  I'd love to hear it if you could put up some samples - and I'd like to try one at some point too.  I think any of these tunings really make sense when you have played it for a little while. 

Fair play to Andy Newton - he can invent totally new harp layouts and write great technical documentation too!

E

[Gnarly He Man]

Jaazman, why not post samples to YouTube?
G

[jazmaan]

Eventually I will post something to YouTube.   In the meantime here's a short clip of the head to a Charlie Parker blues (can't remember the title).  Sorry about the low sound quality but I had to compress it to get under the 400kb attachment limit here.

[Gnarly He Man]

Sounds like it does the job--love those half steps with the bent notes--
I am looking forward to the possibilities of accidentals without OB--I haven't (up to now) found a tuning to accomodate all the normal alterations--
As far as the sound quality--it was OK! I have run into the problem before here--400k is mighty small.
Think Dean Benedetti 
G

[jazmaan]

As you know, I valve my Fourkeys to get a little more expression from the notes and also because once in a while I want an enharmonic choice.  One of those choices can be heard at bar 5 where I attempt a valved blow bend, release and bend again.  Discretion being the better part of valor, the next time around at bar 17,  I play that lick straight.
By the way, I think the name of the tune is "Back Home Blues".

[Gnarly He Man]

I drove 7 hours last night from Tracy CA (went up to see my wife, who's working in the Central Valley, since I was able to snag a gig up there to make it worth my while) home to San Diego (came home for the same reason--duty calls) and so I had lots of time to puzzle over the tuning in my head--
The one I have planned to create is in Bb/A--I am labeling it as such because each course is tuned to a pentatonic scale! The blow notes form a Bb penta and the draw notes an A penta.
So in addition to the four keys for which this tuning is named (in this case, F, C, G and D) there are two other keys which must be included, even tho accidentals are required.
Now, granted I have not yet actually played this tuning  but brothers and sisters, I have played a harmonica or two, and I know that open chords count for something, so I will be using this harp in those keys too (might try E as well); in fact, F seems like a good key for this tuning, with the draw bent b3rd (Ab) and b7th (Eb) being the accidentals and all other notes "given".
I am looking forward to exploring the possibilities on this harp (as you may have guessed )
G
PS Jazmaan, sorry for misspelling your handle, I will try to do better
G

[Gnarly He Man]

Jazmaan, you mentioned a 12 custom job (Rupert made mention of the fact Seydel won't do 12 Fourkeys).
How about using 2 14 hole Marine Band harps (a C and a G), and joining them together after cutting the reed plates into pieces? That way the slots would be longer, and you'd have close to three octaves.
I don't really like Marine Bands, I'm just thinkin' . . .
G

[jazmaan]

I don't think I'd enjoy holding a 28 hole harp, but maybe you've got bigger hands than I do!

[Gnarly He Man]

No, silly, using the comb and combining different pieces of the plate!
See, my feeling is that a span of about 7 holes is a good area of solo tuning to coax into the new tuning.
I haven't made a chart yet and probably won't for some time, but as long as attaching pieces of reed plate to a wooden comb isn't too crazy, this might be an elegant solution--as elegant as a Marine Band might be
The 12 hole instrument is only 2 1/3 octaves!
Two more holes won't even finish the octave--hmm, maybe 28 holes is the way to go
Gary

[Gnarly He Man]

My first reports--
First, I am afraid to tune hole 12--I tuned the C blow down to a Bb, but it really needs to at least be an A (it's supposed to be a G!), and I left the draw at A for now
Secondly, this is really a harp for playing jazz--fiddle tunes are mostly diatonic, and even that requires much shifting--and even on a 12 hole (albeit a crippled one--I keep going up to hole 12 and grimacing) you run out of notes. There is no perfect harp tuning
And last for now, this seems to be my harp for playing Cherokee in the rack--altho the HFC works well too.
More later, gators.
G

[Gnarly He Man]

See attached--or rather, listen . . . it's tiny
If you make a hit record with this sample, please at least mention me
So this is a chord solo, A penta to Bb penta, in 12/8, then 6/8.
Kinda funky, if you ask me!
G

[jazmaan]

I'd be the first to agree there is no perfect harmonica tuning, whether chromatic or diatonic!  To me the only perfect tuning would be a harmonica where every note was available as your choice of an unbent blow, bent blow, unbent draw or bent draw (with each bent note available as an both a bend-up and bend-down).  And each note would be available in every possible chord combination just by hearing the desired note or chord in your head!   But that kind of harmonica probably won't be available within my lifetime, so I'll just keep trying the best available compromises.

I had no idea you were looking for a good fiddle tune harp.   I'm sure there are many better fiddle-tune layouts than the Fourkey.   I have no desire to play Irish or Bluegrass music.   Jazz is my bag, and the Fourkey is the best diatonic jazz tuning I've found to date. 

As for your idea of joining sections of Marine Band plates, you're on the right track, but there are several other practical modifications being worked on to make the 12-hole Fourkey a relatively simple harp to construct and also easier to play.   I don't want to give away anyone's trade secrets just yet but all will be revealed at the next SPAH.  (I've already mentioned partial valving but there are some other significant design refinements in the works.)

Funny you should mention "Cherokee", that was one of the first tunes I tried on the Fourkey.   I don't know of any other diatonic where you can play the melody to "Cherokee" so easily!   That in and of itself should be a clue as to how revolutionary this tuning is.   Similarly, I think I mentioned on Harp-L that the entire melody to "I Got Rhythm" can be played on the Fourkey without even bending a note - and then you can do the same trick in a different key!   Given how fundamental "I Got Rhythm" is to modern jazz, that should also be a clue that this is a giant step ahead in harmonica design.  Hey maybe I should try playing "Giant Steps", I've already learned "Four"!

[Gnarly He Man]

I had no idea you were looking for a good fiddle tune harp.   I'm sure there are many better fiddle-tune layouts than the Fourkey.   I have no desire to play Irish or Bluegrass music.   Jazz is my bag, and the Fourkey is the best diatonic jazz tuning I've found to date. 

I like a few different styles of music, and I appreciate having harmonica tunings that accomodate them. This is definitely a jazz tuning.

As for your idea of joining sections of Marine Band plates, you're on the right track, but there are several other practical modifications being worked on to make the 12-hole Fourkey a relatively simple harp to construct and also easier to play.   I don't want to give away anyone's trade secrets just yet but all will be revealed at the next SPAH.  (I've already mentioned partial valving but there are some other significant design refinements in the works.)

Well then keep us posted, as this is a valuable tuning!
G

[jazmaan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5un0JAkWoc

[Gnarly He Man]

Very nice!
One of the other keys--not the one I made--
I'm thinking this one is a Bb/B--just tried it on mine, in D . . .
I like the b9 bend--the rest are "given" . . .
The Seydel harps (I have not mentioned this yet) are a pleasure to play, pretty easy to work on (the reeds seem to be thinner than some {Hohner}, but they overblow well), and the cover plates are ver' classy.
I don't prefer wood combs, but these are finished nicely.
Hey man, keep those videos coming--let's hear "Four"!
Gary

[Gnarly He Man]

In classic American spirit, I "rolled my own" and tried out Four using my instrument, so I did it in D--it's in Eb normally.
D seems to be the cool key for this harp, the draw bends are b9 and b5, and all other notes are "given", meaning they can be played without bending.
So on my 12 holes, it goes down to the F below (b3) and up to the Bb (#5--but this doesn't count, I haven't tried to tune hole 12 properly), encompassing a full octave of D in the middle and (basicly) a fifth below and above.
Just tried Laura on this one--the line "never quite" is the two draw bends (Eb to G#), quite manageable . . .
I still don't know if I would try to play Bebop on this tho--I sure like the accuracy of a button
G

[Eugene Ryan]

Nice one, jazmaan!  I think it's a pretty good case for multiple key/chromatic playing on a diatonic.  I still like my chroms - but I'd like to try a fourkey in time.  Do you miss the semitone and tone bends?  I see that there are two semitone bends available per octave...

E

[jazmaan]

One of the refinements I made to Andy Newton's design was to valve the entire bottom plate and most of the top plate (except where bends naturally occur in the layout.)   So that somewhat helps to make up for the otherwise limiting bending opportunities in this layout.

[jazmaan]

Today I took out my Omnibook and my Fourkey and learned the head to Yardbird Suite and even got through the first A section of Bird's solo!   I can't tell you what a thrill it is to be able to play lines like that on a short harp!  Of course you can spend a lifetime trying to sound like Bird and many sax players do just that with only limited success.  His rhythms and speed will never be attainable on harp but I'm getting closer than I ever believed I could.

[Gnarly He Man]

I am afraid to tune hole 12--I tuned the C blow down to a Bb, but it really needs to at least be an A (it's supposed to be a G!), and I left the draw at A for now

Well, another first--I went to Radio Shack, they had silver solder, so I used that to drop the top two notes.
So now the harp is retuned; 12 holes, low tuning starts on F up to the G that is the 3rd hole of the standard chrom. Just over two octaves
I don't really like the tuning for my purposes, so any reasonable offer is welcome.
In the meantime, however, I have also ordered 128 valves and a rivet and reed remover from Bill Romel, so I will be busy crafting alternate tuned harps of my dreams.
Life is good.
Gary

[jazmaan]

Are you going to SPAH?  If you are, bring the harp and I'll check it out and maybe make you an offer.   Pat Missin is still working on my "stretch" Fourkey.   We decided to add another two holes, so when it's done it will be a tenor-tuned 14 hole.  We're hoping it will be ready in time for SPAH.

[Gnarly He Man]

Hiya--
Nope, not going to SPAH, maybe someday but not this year.
This fourkey is tenor tuned, starting on F, but you are right, 12 holes isn't a lot for this tuning.
I should figure out what I need to ask for it, but I have some other tunings I like better, even for jazz.
Gotta say, the bebop tuned chrom is the harp that is letting me "make it happen" the most these days.
It helps to have some different keys!
Gary
PS Have fun at SPAH!
G

[jazmaan]

I'm pretty happy  even with just my 10-hole Fourkeys but the 14 hole should give me a lot more elbow room.   But I'll tell you, the valves make all the difference in the world.   I had to play an unvalved Fourkey the other day and didn't like it at all.   It's not because you need the valves for chromaticity, or even for enharmonics - but just the slightly spongy feel that the valves give an otherwise unyielding note is very important to me.  I could never go back.

[Gnarly He Man]

I'll try it when I get time--
but I have too many harmonicas!
And they're all tuned weird!
OK, not all of them--
I am going thru the "work" harps (mostly diatonic) and tarting them up--
Lotta work here guys . . .
G
This just in . . .
I wrote a chart for a slide version of the Fourkey--
Yes, it's too weird for anybody, but think of the enharmonics!
Gary
Hey Jazmaan, I assume you are going to SPAH this year?
G